If I had to kill one, it would be Enzo.
Everyone except for Hayley, Hope, and Tristan.
Elijah was much better on TVD, now he sucks. His sole defining characteristic is his obsession with Hayley. He does not grow or change - except lodging himself deeper into Hayley's behind. Haylijah and Klayley baiting are detriment to Klaus, Hayley, and Elijah as characters. Let's be real, they ruined Elijah's potential to fool the audience into thinking Hayley isn't a horrible person and an all around boring/at times infuriating collection of conflicting and offensive tropes. Sadly, it doesn't look like much will change in S04. The best moments Elijah has had are the ones where Hayley is nowhere to be found but, they have ruined all of his outside relationships so he can go back to wiping Hayley's ass and sniffing Klaus' farts.
The most? Everyone's life is a hot mess. But, I would say Bonnie, Katherine, and Elena.
Caroline, Elena, and Hayley
Oh yeah, I forgot about Katherine and Aya. I loved them as well. Ugh, they're dead and Hayley and Elena are still alive.
I love that you need to beg people not bring up ships, lol.
My favorite villain on TO was Lucien because he was smart and didn't run towards his death like Hayley, Jackson, and Marcel who have ridiculous plot armor and they even made him dumb in final episodes to accommodate Hayley's dumb decisions and to prop up Marcel as the final villain. Apparently, Lucien forgot about the way that property ownership and deeds work. Despite figuring out that Cami put her lease in another name and it would be someone close.. Lucien also forgot that he has compulsion and can go to the government office where deeds are held and compel someone to change it - like Marcel did. But, he forgot all of that despite being desperate to get inside earlier.
Dahlia is a close second she also lost her mind for Hayley's benefit. She decided to wake Klaus instead of leaving him to rot and killing everyone. Then she decided to curse Hayley instead of killing her. There was zero reason someone like Dahlia and with he desires would have been doing this but, everyone becomes super generous when Hayley makes dumb decisions and her life is in danger.
My favorite villain on TVD is Kai. He was a homicidal lunatic til the end. He was really smart, funny and, cared for nothing and no one but himself. He died a villain too - no stupid redemption story.
Silas was doing what he was doing for love but he was also killing tons of people and ruining lives to do it. So, he was a villain and was portrayed accurately. Katerina was running for her life but, she was also killing people and ruining lives to do it. She was portrayed as a sympathetic villain and that is accurate. I can't speak for Sybil because I haven't seen TVD S08E01 cause I don't care about TVD anymore. I think it's mostly the "good" characters that are portrayed wrong - Elena, Hayley, Caroline, Stefan, Marcel, Elijah, and Davina.
No woman currently on the shows. I ship him with personal growth. Anyone but Caroline/Hayley - both are awful.
Were you watching the show on drugs? Alaric conceived the twins as a human. How many times do we need to tell you this? Klaus was always a werewolf and he triggered the curse as a vampire. You need to go back watch the episodes again. He was always a wolf. He was born a wolf. Esther made him an original hybrid and then cursed him to suppress his wolf side but it was always there in the examples that I and many others gave you. That's the order of events. I have no idea why you think his curse was triggered when Esther's spell was broken. He triggered it even before then and he never ceased to be werewolf.
Well, at least you acknowledge that it's stupid. But, saying it's "canon" doesn't mean it makes sense or that it should have ever happened. That's not a logical rebuttal. You're basically saying - "it's what they are saying". Ok, no one is denying that. Lots of things are canon and the fans don't agree with it/like it or pick apart the logic. Not just this one situation. "It's canon" - doesn't mean it's good writing. Those are two different things.
Both of these ridiculous pregnancies should have never happened and if you're going present a story to an audience - it has to make sense. That's their job - to present a somewhat logical and believeable story within the bounds and confines of that genre and universe. You can't just say this what I say it is, cause "magic" and then expect everyone mindlessly accept it. That magic works a certain way and quite frankly, so does basic logic and common sense.
You like or at least agree with decision to shove a baby in Hayley - fine. But, don't throw out "it's canon" like that somehow makes this sh*tstorm, your arguments, or their logic, make sense. "It's canon" is just some feeble attempt to shut down any all criticism or their storylines and their execution and operates under the assumption that they can do no wrong - which isn't the case.
You've presented arguments and we've rebutted every single one of them and when you have nothing to argue back with - "it's canon". You weren't saying that this whole time - you were trying to argue the point and failed. You like it. Just say that but, don't act like we're all nuts or wrong for thinking this storyline is madness.
This mentality is exactly why the show NEVER improves. The showrunners think they are gods that can do no wrong and they operate under the assumption that everyone will mindlessly accept what is put out there. That isn't the case and EVERY SHOW is picked apart the same way. It's just that TVD/TO doesn't fair well under same analysis.
He was able to have a child with bc the were the match
Werewolves can have children, Klaus is a werewolf/vampire because of his werewolf side.
Vampires still can't reproduce and a dead werewolf certainly can't. The other hybrids were also unable to reproduce.
His lycanthropy overwrote his vampirism with regular hybrids vampire vampirism overwrote lycanthropy.
Completely made up, lol. One does not over write the other. He was always a werewolf, even if it wasn't activated. Then Esther did the spell to supress that side of him - but, he was always a wolf. He did not cease to be a wolf or a vampire at any point. I have no idea why this person kept saying he "became" a werewolf.
That's like saying Caitlyn Jenner is now a woman because she's/he's biologically a woman because she's got the clothes on or gets surgery to get female body parts. Whatever the f*ck Jenner calls himself/herself - will always be biologically, a man. She can do whatever the f*ck she wants with he body but she is man - always will be.
Rachel Dolezel will always be White, no matter what she tells people or how much bronzer she puts on.
I also love that they are quoting word for word what the writers are saying. I only what their criteria for logical storytelling is because it seems like you can tell them ANYTHING and they will take it at face value with no thought whatsoever.
They bring up ONLY thing that bolster their argument like breeding but his vampire side also means he doesn't turn at the full, before or after the curse. I don't think Klaus has ever been subjected to wolvesbane they are normally trying to kill him with White Oak, unless my memory fails me. So how would this person know that wolvesbane would have affect on him at all - when other werewolf things don't?
There has never been any explanation as to why vampires can reproduce but Klaus never stopped being both a wolf and vampire but, when it's convenient that Phoebe Tonkin - who can't get job without pity or begging - was handed a role because her other show got cancelled and they NEEDED to get her to The Originals in a scenario where Klaus would/could not kill her (which he would anyone else who did what Hayley did). People don't think it's weird that she is all of a sudden the "most important member of the family" with an "it's magic" explanation for her pregnancy?
I love that they bring up Alaric and completely forget that Alaric reproduced with Jo as human. He was cured of the magic that made him a vampire by the magic barrier. And his children are only alive because of an equally nonsensical situation. There is no more sound logic than bringing up one illogical scenario to justify the underlying reasoning of another equally illgical scenario, lol.
"The argument that they are sterile relies on them being dead. They aren't sterile in a physical sense."
As much as I could laugh at this, in the absense of an actual explanation I guess, I kind of agree? Their entire logic is dependent on two things - on Klaus "becoming" a werewolf for the first time when the spell to supress his vampire side was broken (which isn't the case because Klaus always was a werewolf - it started when he was born and it never ended) and his werewolf "overwriting" his vampire side - which is extremely stupid and makes no sense. One side isn't overwriting that other side. The spell prevented him for expressing the traits of a werewolf but it doesn't override his nature as a vampire. I could get down with their explanation if it was some crazy ass spell or some potion/poison. Not that "lycanthropy overwrote his vampire side" or "it's magic".
I would have more respect for these people if they could admit that this whole was done to accommodate Phoebe Tonkin/Hayley and that makes no sense and that they don't care. I don't have a problem with Hope herself - it's the way Hope is written and Hayley and all the stupid sh*t that follows her because "she's Hope's mom". Just Hayley in general. She is the worst character ever put on television of SOOO many reasons.
A very strange metaphor, not sure what exactly you were trying to say but whatevs. Sorry. You should use "^" or "@" so people know who your talking to. I ship everyone with getting back to the topic. I have no idea why or how this became a never ending discussion of whether Hayley sucks or not. I thought we are talking about Jackson/Hayley/Elijah, lol. Now Jackson is dead.
"Calm like a froth", ok?
Froth: bubbles that form in or on a liquid. Something that is appealing but that has no serious value or interest.
If your going to talk sh*t about me, at least make proper word usage a priority. That's all I ask.
1. What would anyone call someone coming to town to sacrifice a dozen of your friends if not ruining your life? Am I supposed to give her a pat on the back because she said don't kill one guy, but the rest can go? There is no argument that can justify what she did or lessen how extremely terrible it was. Her finding information about her family is not justification for murdering 12 people that she called her "pack" and her friends. It was not a deal or an alliance, they completely thought that she was trying to help them, not to feed them to Klaus to be murdered. It is the very nature of her relationship with the hybrids that makes what she did that much worse. It isn't less horrible cause Tyler was spared. I'm sure it's cold comfort to Tyler as he visits his mother grave. I'm sure he's saying "Thanks Hales, because of you, I am alive to visit my mother's tombstone".
2. You listed her working for Katherine (which wasn't true) and Katherine wanting to kill her like that's something that should garner feelings of sympathy . She literally just came off of killing 12 innocent people, why would anyone or the audience as a whole care if she's running from Katherine or if she gets killed? If Charles Mason gets beat up in prison, should people say, "poor Charlie"? He's still a terrible person that deserves every bit of suffering he recieves. I think I safely can speak for a vast majority of the audience at the time that scene initially aired and say no one gave rats ass if she died, just kill her.
3. You're right and I said most of the people wanting kill her and her baby were Mikaelson enemies. But not all of them. The way she is going, she'll catch up with the Mikaelsons. Give it time. Klaus and co. have a 1000+ years to create the volume of enemies they have.
4. What you said made it seem like they pressured her to marry which they didn't. I can get behind her marrying Jackson because she wants to help her pack and she believed that they could protect her daughter - even though all they're doing is dying or getting their asses handed to them. What I can't get behind is the fact that people make it seem like she was forced and had no choice, which isn't true. Nor is it completely selfless, she is a person with motivations of her own. Not Mother Theresa 2.0. She did it because she wants to be with her pack more than anything else. And, that's fine with me. I can accept that. It's not a bad thing for her do something because she as person - a separate unit from her child- wants something. However, I find it so annoying that people that people want to make it seem like she's some fallen angel that cares for nothing except the needs of others - instead of a real person with faults and needs of her own.
5. The wolves in TVD are like killing machines and the ones in TO are like whiny hillbillies with anger issues. All they are doing is dying and getting beat up. While I agree that Klaus was very stubborn, so is she. Both of them are dysfuntional individuals that have little to no interest in working together and have no buisness raising a child. They both fight over Hope like she's a toy or or the last pair of Manolo Blahniks at a sample sale. Her running was SOOOO stupid for following reasons...
a. Why would she have taken Dahlia's word at face value? Yes, the psycho witch that uses magic to crush her enemies is telling me the the spell preventing magic is failing - wouldn't a logical person confirm that this is actually true before running out in the open? Especially when life your duaghter's life and freedom is risk? They are still saying magic can't be done there, so how was her running a good idea?
b. So what if Klaus admitted he killed Aiden? It was not productive in anyway for him to do so, but he was right about the fact that if the wolves are backing Hayley up, she will run -even though Dahlia was destroying the wolf sentries without getting a hair out of place. She is going to run off half cocked and get her self killed.
c. Hayley was in a house that prevents the use of magic, yet thought that a bracelet that does the same thing would work. Even when Freya found them despite this magical bracelet, she didn't ask Elijah "How did you find me?" Wouldn't that be a question to ask? And, she was literally resting all of her hopes on Hope keeping this bracelet on. What if it falls off while she's asleep? What if it falls off while we're not around or we don't notice in time?
d. Hayley assumed that the ONLY way that Dahlia could have found her was tracking Hope's magic. Off the top of my head, I can think of 10 ways that someone as powerful and intelligent as Dahlia could have found Hope.
e. Hayley started the episode seeing Dahlia take control of an entire street of people, including her very own husband. She literally made no preparations for the possibility that Dahlia could take control of the entire pack. One could ask, why not ask Freya to brew up some of that tea so that she doesn't take them over?
I can go on and on. As to why her plan wasn't any better than what Klaus/Elijah wanted to do. There was a stupid option and a stupid-er option. She took took the stupid-er option with out offering any viable alternatives. Who the hell goes to forest to escape an all powerful witch? Still boggles my mind.
6. She is a selfish person. Look at what just happened to her husband! The words literally came out of her own mouth. She wanted to take Hope away from her father, replace him with Jackson, and then complains that Klaus wanted to erase her from Hope's life - what? The wolves are just got their asses kicked by Dahlia at the safe house and she wants to run away with those same people, despite their inability to keep themselves much less anyone else safe. Honestly, Hope would have been safer with one human body guard with a hand full of sand. Because at least the body guard could toss the sand into Dahlia's eyes, hindering her vision and preventing her from effectively using her magic. That would have been more effective. She was tossing the wolves at an enemy they can't win against. Dahlia was swatting the wolves away like flies. Yet, somehow Hayley thought they were the perfect defense against Dahlia. Good plan I guess, lol. What would you call killing 12 innocent people for a flash drive of information on the parents you already know are dead? Everyone else is selfish in their own way but all she has to do is bring Hope and alot what she's doing is right, when it's not. Hope is not a justification for everything that she is doing and it doesn't make her actions any less egregious.
7. The problem with what you said is that she HAS abandoned them in their time of need. She made the decision to take Hope and never come back. She didn't show one iota of concern for the Mikaelsons the night Dahlia came to the compound. It's fine if she's running from Dahlia but to say that she never has is not true. She didn't stay with them and try to defeat Dahlia. She made the decision that she was never coming back - whether they lived or died or whether Dahlia was defeated or not. The ONLY reason why she is in NOLA at all is because Klaus would kill her pack and husband if she tried to runaway with Hope again. The ONLY reason. If she had had it her way, she would be in Alaska with Jackson and the pack, literally giving zero fucks about any of them. "I'm here, so I might as well help you." doesn't exactly scream devotion. Nor does "If she (Eva) comes after Hope, Rebekah or no Rebekah, I will put her down for good." While everyone else was scrambling to find ways to keep Eva away from Hope AS WELL AS save Rebekah, Hayley did not give a damn. If she had had it her way, she would have buried an axe in Eva's skull without even trying to save Rebekah. Great, she's ineffectilvely helping them now when they really don't even need her. Again, not a reason for me or anyone else to like her or to ignore ALL the other crap she's said and done.
8. I don't even care about Elijah being Hope's uncle. But, he has completely misplaced his "man card". I personally can not stand him bawling his eyes about about Hayley while she has some dead ass look on her face. I absolutely HATE Haylijah and I wish they would been platonic. Many people don't like that relationship because they don't like Hayley and/or hate seeing him become a jabroni in her presense.
9. Elijah and Klaus have the most complicated brother relationship I have ever seen. But, alot of the time she would cause unnecessary - unnecessary being the operative word- conflict between them. When she doesn't get her way Klaus, she goes to Elijah to get it. Really, Klaus and Hayley should learn to work and communicate better for the sake of their child. I really can't blame Klaus for not really wanting Elijah and Hayley together for that reason alone. I just wish they would have ditched that garbage and work towards showing Klaus and Hayley working together more productively instead of throwing her from man's bed to another. I NEVER want to see her with either brother, but Klaus and her would be far the worse combo. That is when I will tune out for good. The Mikaelsons are always fighting. Wouldn't it have been nice to see her a be force for good, to see her bring them together instead of tear them apart when she wants her way with Hope? Kind of like what they are doing with Freya now.
10. How about, "Your family was ruining her (Hope) life" and calling them homocidal lunatics. Elijah and Rebekah are also Mikaelsons. For that reason, are those things that should ever come out of her mouth? Klaus saved her from killed by Kat's minions and he could have just killed her afterwards - he didn't. Klaus saved her and Hope from Dahlia. Dahlia wanted to outright kill her and he figured out a way to keep her alive, yet she resents him for it. All of them - including Klaus - has come to her defense and saved her from time to time. Yet, somehow Klaus or the Mikaelsons are always the villain in her story. While I agree that he douche. She is also a douche that does dumb shit ALL THE TIME. He's just more upfront about who he is and what he's about. They are both douches.
11. No one said that everybody else is innocent. Fuck no, they are all terrible in different ways. But, that doesn't mean that innocent people don't suffer/die in her wake as well. She killed those hybrids, she killed those witches that had nothing with the plot against her baby, she killed 11 innocent witches during Davina's assassination attempt. Who were those people Klaus was slamming into the school bus and murdering in an attempt to reclaim Hope? Not innocent people? Did they not die because of a decision she made? She did that assassination for Davina to release her pack from the curse but does that make it morally right and their deaths justified? Absolutely fucking not. Did her husband not get his heart ripped out of his chest because she thought her own needs should supersede that of him, the pack, and their marriage? All of them kill people because they feel they need to for whatever reason, either to get rid of an enemy or protect their family but when they do it (especially Klaus) it's wrong but when she does it, it's right and somehow, the people being killed are no longer the victims. Hayley is the victim in their eyes. These are not good people - Hayley included.
As for Katherine, people love Katherine because she doesn't pretend to be something that she is not. She is always upfront and honest about why she is doing what she is doing. Hell no, she is not a good person. But, like I said, she prides herself an intelligent and cunning survivor. Not being a constant object of pity or victimization. Katherine didn't need to be in a ship with anyone because she was awesome by herself. Alot of people were annoyed with the writers making her obssessed with Stefan in S05 and perferred her other wise. Unlike the ship mania that surrounds the Hayley fandom. Katherine's story is so sad and none of the tragedy that befell her as a human was her fault but everything following was completely on her and she never says otherwise. Nor does she bring her sad story up all the time to justify it. That's why people can stomach her more than Hayley. It also doesn't help when Hayley is making one dumb decision after another and bringing up Hope or being an orphan like it makes what she is doing any less wrong or just plain stupid. Katherine ran from Klaus for 500 years. She was probably laughing in her grave at Hayley, at the very thought that Hayley really thought she could take Hope from Klaus and run away and her half ass attempt at it.
Whoo! That was alot, lol. I started and then I got so far and said "I might as well finish". What really bothers me when people ask why people don't like her, is that alot of the time, they proceed to list every way in which she has been victimized - conveniently leaving out all of the ways she victimized other people - and speaking little or nothing about the merits of her as a person. I don't know who has less respect for Hayley, me who hates her, or her actual fans. Just because the people around are doing bad things, doesn't mean she's a good person. She doesn't become good by elimination. She's just younger and more hypocritcal about it.
To answer your question...
1. She was an orphan that came to MF to sacrifice 12 innocent people that she called her friends and her pack for months. Not only did the 12 hybrids die, so did Tyler's mom. She knew her family wasn't there. Shane knew about Tyler and she befriended him only to destroy everything he holds dear. She probably could have hired a moderately private detective to find the same info.
2. She exchanged information about the cure in exchange for information about her family. She never worked for Katherine. Afterwards, Katherine had her minions try to kill her because Hayley was a loose end.
3. While it is true that many of the people after her were Mikaelson enemies, they were not only Mikaelson enemies. Francesca wanted to kill her because she was competition and even bombed the Bayou to get rid of her and made a deal with the witches to kill her and Hope. And she often would not listen to used to tell and put herself in danger like every episode.
4. Absolutely no one forced her to marry Jackson. In fact, he didn't even bring it up. She found the entry about the Unification ceremony and when he said it has to be a marriage in every way, she was hesitant to do. He gathered the wolves to speak to them and she showed up and said she would do it. No one said, "You need to marry him". It was completely her choice and no one was forcing her. After she got married, she pretty much treated the Mikaelsons including Elijah and Rebekah like crap - including taking Hope away from them and never coming back, ONLY after Jackson gave her an ultimatum. She shit all over them and in the end, they were the ones that save her life when she wanted to run around the forest. She should be grateful to be alive. Not whining about wolf families when she goes around destroying families left and right.
5. The wolves are weak as hell and can't even protect themselves, much less anyone else. She wants to be with the wolves because to her they are her family and the people she wants to be with. However, she has brought nothing but misery into their lives. Her AND Jackson made the decision to run away and Klaus had to do a really shitty thing to her and her pack to save her life. Even when Jackson was telling her to stay out of their affairs, she did not want to hear it. Now Jackson has paid the unltimate price for her choices. No one needed her to torture Tristan. They've been around for 1000+ years. The Mikaelsons didn't sit around for 10 centuries saying "Damn, I want to torture this person, but, I just don't know how! We need a sassy werewolf to spout one-liners and bite this person for us. Guess, we're out of luck."
6. She is a selfish person.
7. Her entire existance is tied to a man, someway somehow.
8. She makes stupid decisions all the time. She is dumber than a box of hair.
9. Her story is the least tragic of anyone else on either TO/TVD, so her story isn't going to inspire that much sympathy, especially since her personality is awful and obnoxious. I'm not going to feel anymore sympathy for her, than I do anyone else.
10. She uses Hope as an excuse to do whatever she wants.
11. She has brought down Elijah's character 800 notches. He is reduced to a hypociritcal love sick idiot.
12. She has done nothing but caused conflict between the brothers. Both Klaus and Hayley are crazy and unfit to raise Hope but her decisions often put Hope in more danger and she uses Elijah to get her way.
13. She bad mouths the Originals for being selfish, murderous, ect, ect when she is just as bad. Maybe worse. She thinks she can run around killing droves of people and there is always a reason - whether valid or not - but innocent people still die/suffer in her wake. Yet, she somehow thinks she's better. She is no better than Klaus. At least, Klaus doesn't pretend to be something she isn't.
14. People hate love-triangles and trite romances - Jayley/Haylijah love triangle.
15. Alot of people hate the wolf storylines.
16. The blaming of Klaus/the Mikaelsons for every one of her life problems is getting old.
17. Alot of people can't stand Phoebe's acting.
18. She brings up her sad childhood every episode. No one cares, because she doesn't deserve it any more than anyone else. Katherine had a WAY sadder life and background but she prides herself of being a survivor not an object of pity. Kat didn't bring up a some woe in her past everytime something happened. She said, "I'm Katherine Pierce. I'm a survivor." Not, I'm Katherine Pierce. I'm an orphan."
19. Some people call her the "poor man's Katherine". She got the snark, but none of the brains.
That's it, in a nutshell. That's off the top of my head. People are not a collection woes and tragedy. What makes a man or woman is also their choices. Her decisions are what has caused a vast majority of her suffering. Why do people talk about Hayley like she is an inflatable tube man in front a dealership, subject to the winds and whims of others, with no free will or agency of her own? She makes choices, for better or worse, and that is why she is living the life she is living now.
Bring Gia back to life or a new character. I actually believe that Katherine was genuine in her desire to be with him. Even after Elijah didn't negotiate her freedom for her, she still went after him to try to convince him to leave Klaus alone and be with her. I would have liked for them to be together, but she's dead. Anyone but Hayley is fine. Elijah needs someone classier and more mature.
If Freya gets with Jackson, I will hate her. Ugh, no more Jackson. I think he is annoying and I don't think Hayley deserves him because he's good husband to her when she doesn't deserve it but I would rather see Freya single and away from Hayley's leftovers. Then we'll have a love-square. Who needs that crap?